AILSA CHANG, HOST:
2024 has been Chappell Roan’s yr. The 26-year-old pop singer has been all over the place out of your Instagram feed to “SNL” to competition levels the world over, and he or she’s racked up billions of streams alongside the way in which.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, “HOT TO GO!”)
CHAPPELL ROAN: (Singing) H-O-T-T-O-G-O, simply snap and clap and contact your toes. Elevate your palms, now body-roll. Dance it out, you are scorching to go.
CHANG: However you may be much less aware of Chappell’s common cowriter and producer Daniel Nigro. He is nominated for producer of the yr on the Grammy Awards, based mostly on his work with Chappell and one other singer he is helped propel to famous person standing, Olivia Rodrigo.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, “VAMPIRE”)
OLIVIA RODRIGO: (Singing) The way in which you offered me for components as you sunk your enamel into me. Oh, bloodsucker, dream crusher, bleeding me dry, like a d*** vampire.
CHANG: Nigro produced each of Rodrigo’s albums, “Bitter” and “Guts.” And after I spoke to her final yr, she had this to say about him.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)
RODRIGO: He was a extremely great guiding mild all through this course of. And, you realize, clearly, he had been by this very distinctive state of affairs of this loopy, unprecedented “Bitter” success with me, so he may empathize and perceive what I used to be going by while additionally being somewhat older and wiser than me and having the ability to information me. In order that positively helped.
CHANG: The ascent of Olivia Rodrigo and Chappell Roan into the pop star stratosphere has helped set up Nigro as the person with the Midas contact relating to making pop songs for a brand new technology. Once I caught up with him not too long ago, I requested him what it took to information Chappell to the place she is in the present day from once they first met approach again in 2018.
DANIEL NIGRO: Once I met Chappell, she was 20, about to be 21, and he or she was at all times Chappell Roan. It had a really totally different aesthetic to it. It was positively, like, somewhat bit darker and moodier within the music tone. And, mainly, the primary tune we ever wrote was this tune referred to as “Love Me Anyway.”
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, “LOVE ME ANYWAY”)
ROAN: (Singing) It is onerous to confess I used to be the one in charge.
NIGRO: After which it wasn’t till February of the following yr she got here in and he or she was like, I wish to write a tune referred to as “Pink Pony Membership.” I keep in mind, like, sort of her like, what?
CHANG: (Laughter).
NIGRO: Like, you realize, like – ‘trigger when – in case you simply hear the title, “Pink Pony Membership,” out of context of listening to the tune…
CHANG: Completely.
NIGRO: …And particularly on the time, when all of her music was actually darkish and moody…
CHANG: Proper.
NIGRO: …You understand, I used to be like – I used to be somewhat bit, like, what?
CHANG: Is that ironic (laughter)?
NIGRO: Like, yeah, I used to be somewhat bit confused as to what she meant. So she began explaining. She needed sort of, like, this dancy (ph) tune. I used to be excited ‘trigger – however on the identical time somewhat bit, like, you need a dance tune? So we began writing the tune over a beat.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, “PINK PONY CLUB”)
ROAN: (Singing) Black lights and a mirrored disco ball, each night time’s another excuse why I left all of it.
CHANG: OK, so the rhythm was first.
NIGRO: The rhythm was first. So we knew what it was going to really feel like when it was dancy. I keep in mind really feel – I – you – I get this sense – I’ve bought this sense a few instances in my profession of, like, once you write a tune that is so daring your physique, like, begins to present you these actually – for me personally, like, it offers me these, like, bizarre combined indicators that – ‘trigger you are like, you begin to prefer it a lot, and then you definately really, like, really feel prefer it’s particular. However then you definately really feel like, oh, are folks going to grasp this? This does really feel actually particular, so I hope that folks perceive it.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, “PINK PONY CLUB”)
ROAN: (Singing) Pink Pony Membership. I’ll carry on dancing on the Pink Pony Membership. I’ll carry on dancing down in West Hollywood.
CHANG: So once you had been writing “Pink Pony Membership” and also you had been feeling that ambivalence, do you know on the time, like, that is going to be a success?
NIGRO: No, no. So on the time, I used to be – ‘trigger – so I suppose that is going to your query sort of about, like…
CHANG: How she’s advanced.
NIGRO: …How she’s advanced. And I really feel like that was the second, to me, was like this completely encapsulates her character, which may be either side of being tremendous euphoric after which additionally being, like, on the sadder facet of the musical spectrum, you realize?
CHANG: I like listening to the way in which you interpret the artist’s voice. Like, the way in which you are like, oh, this tune, “Pink Pony Membership,” it really much more encapsulated who Chappell is. And the factor I wish to perceive about you is the way you do assist artists hear their very own voices as they’re working with you as a result of you’re a decade-and-a-half older than both Chappell or Olivia. You are a person. Does that age and gender hole ever get in the way in which once you’re serving to them carry their visions to life? I like the face you simply made. It was like, ugh (laughter).
NIGRO: No, no, I do not assume so. I feel that that is – I feel – I really feel prefer it’s virtually, like, a greater query to ask them in a sure approach, like, ‘trigger I do not really feel it. I really feel like…
CHANG: You do not really feel that hole?
NIGRO: I really feel just like the – I imply, like, even, like, in case you’re speaking about, like, Olivia going by sure issues like…
CHANG: Love.
NIGRO: …Easy as a breakup.
CHANG: Yeah.
NIGRO: I performed in an emo band, you realize? Like, I used to be an emotional, like, 20-year-old at one level. So, like, asking me if I can relate to these emotions, in fact I can, you realize?
CHANG: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I’m so curious, although, like, once you’re working with an artist like Chappell, had been there any – ever any disagreement as to the path a tune ought to go? And who wins when there’s a disagreement?
NIGRO: We – I feel we get to share wins. I will offer you an instance of each. So in “Pink Pony Membership,” after I first made the demo of the tune, the place the guitar solo is I had a synth solo. Like, I actually was simply, like, me taking part in the Juno-60, like, doing a solo on the synth. After which I despatched it to her, and I used to be actually enthusiastic about it. She’s like, no, it needs to be a guitar solo. And I used to be like, a guitar solo? And I keep in mind, like, at first being like, a guitar solo? Like, who does guitar solos, you realize? Like…
CHANG: Lots of people do guitar solos.
NIGRO: And I used to be like, OK. And I used to be like, OK, positive, like, I will attempt a guitar solo.
(SOUNDBITE OF CHAPPELL ROAN SONG, “PINK PONY CLUB”)
NIGRO: That was a second the place, like, I keep in mind, like, at first being like, huh? Like, why does she need a guitar solo right here, you realize?
CHANG: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. However you give room for her to be proper, and then you definately experiment.
NIGRO: Sure. Experiment, yeah. After which she let me win on “Crimson Wine Supernova” as a result of the rhythm is (imitating musical rhythm).
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, “RED WINE SUPERNOVA”)
ROAN: (Singing) She was a playboy, Brigitte Bardot.
NIGRO: I used to be simply pushing for it to be, like, so excessive. Like, she did not need it to be excessive. And he or she, like – and I keep in mind having a second of, we had been similar to – I used to be like, simply go along with me on it – you realize? – and, like, she sort of was like, OK, and we, like, went full camp, you realize?
CHANG: Yeah.
NIGRO: And I feel that was an enormous…
CHANG: And also you offered her.
NIGRO: And I offered her on, like, going excessive. And I keep in mind she – once we lastly, like, laid down the vocals for the tune, with, like, the let’s decide it up now, and, like, similar to the overt campiness of it…
CHANG: Proper, proper.
NIGRO: …That she was like, OK, that is superior.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, “RED WINE SUPERNOVA”)
ROAN: (Singing) OK, y’all, let’s decide it up now. I do not care that you are a stoner. Crimson wine supernova, fall proper into me.
CHANG: I imply, that is the enjoyment of collaboration…
NIGRO: Yeah.
CHANG: …You stretch one another. You make one another develop…
NIGRO: Yeah.
CHANG: …And you are taking dangers since you belief the opposite particular person…
NIGRO: Sure.
CHANG: …And make one thing cool.
NIGRO: I feel that is the essential half, like, is like, no, you need to pay attention to one another. After which on the finish of the day it is like, OK, nice. You understand what? You had been proper.
CHANG: Yeah.
NIGRO: Like, you – I am unable to imagine that I did not hear this earlier than, yeah.
CHANG: That is so cool. You belief one another’s instinct.
NIGRO: Yeah.
CHANG: I feel that is nice. Producer Dan Nigro. He is up for producer of the yr at this yr’s Grammy Awards. Good luck, babe.
NIGRO: Good luck, babe (laughter).
CHANG: Sorry, I needed to (laughter). Thanks a lot for coming to go to me at NPR West. This was so terrific to be speaking to you.
NIGRO: Thanks. Thanks, I recognize it.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, “GOOD LUCK, BABE!”)
ROAN: (Singing) …I name child. You may kiss 100 boys in bars, shoot one other shot, attempt to cease the sensation. You may say it is simply the way in which you might be, make a brand new excuse, one other silly cause.
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